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ABS Prime Time designs "How Muslims Are Treated In USA" experiment. Looks at how Americans treat Muslims.
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This type of selective behavior knows no bounds of race and creed unfortunately.
There is good and bad everywhere.
Methinks that means you should give an argument.
^ The people involved didn't think it was meaningless, nor do most people who've seen the video here.
Methinks that means you should give an argument.
hear, hear! Let's start with what would have made that a meaningFUL experiment to you, Pprt...
I appreciated it, myself. I hope a lot of people overseas who have never been to the U.S. and who have pre-conceived notions about the population in general here watch this.
Those are all important topics, and there are real concerns behind them. But the way they're reported is designed to entertain and enrage. And never seems to focus on useful statistics, or the efforts being made to address the problem. Also, the sheer ammount of fucking with strangers against their will seems unethical. Serously, no need to make teenage girls cry with your staged confrontations.
On the other hand it was really nice to see ordinary people defending a muslim woman. But I still don't like the minipulative and unscientific nature of these real life experements.
Another thing that I've always been curious about is this: All anger springs from fear. So what is this guy afraid of?
Till the day I die, I'll never understand the "If you're not with me, then you're against me" attitude. It shows the lack of intelligence and inability to see that (oh my god!) there could be a third option, or a fourth, or fifth.
Another thing that I've always been curious about is this: All anger springs fear. So what is this guy afraid of?
and don't forget, fear is the path to the dark side!
this is a Great post!
I have to agree with entr0py on the style of reporting. As should be appearant TV news programs are designed to keep people in their seats so they can watch the commercials and earn the revenue. It only follows that they'd take to sensationalizing or fearing the populus into staying tuned, for the betterment or degradation of it's viewers.
Which is more horrible, Islamic "honor killings" and female mutilation or a refusal to be served?
Islamic law and its backwards ways are incompatible with the laws and culture of a free, democratic society. I have seen no evidence of "moderate" Muslims adapting and assimilating within any Western nation, just news footage of European neighborhoods burning.
I refuse to pretend Islamic ways are anything but inferior to the American way of life. It has nothing to do with "racism" and everything to do with values. Wherever Muslims arrive in the West they do so brimming with confrontation, obstinance and outrageous demands that the majority culture accommodate them, while every other ethnic and religious group in America adapts, assimilates and prospers to the extent they ignore leftists' you're-a-victim propaganda.
Farhad and others, I respect your right to live your life and worship as you see fit. Unfortunately Muslim leaders and too many followers do not wish the same for those outside of Islam.
Compare this to an Asch paradigm where the control doesn't exist and the ratio matches up perfectly.
To claim that this is "How Muslims Are Treated In [sic] USA" is patently ludicrous. The only fair assessment would be a hidden camera tracking a hijab-clad woman going about daily tasks.
It seems that the fact that all we saw was a well-rehearsed performance by professional actors went over everyone's head. If there's one thing people can't get enough of it's righteous indignation.
I live in the Islamic state of Kuwait, the second largest religious denomination here is Christians. In fact in most countries in the Middle East it is always the second largest religious block.
Muslims have no problem with Jews, they have a problem with Zionists, which is a totally different thing and relates to the continuous oppression of Palestinian people. There are many Jews who live in peace in that most feared state of Iran, something that dispels the common held misconception that Iran wants to 'wipe' Israel away. The differences are political not religious.
Islamic ways are not backward and are totally compatible with Democracy, which thrives in Kuwait, Turkey, Indonesia and other nations (I exclude most Middle East nations since they are monarchies, like that closest ally to the US called Saudi Arabia from where most of 9/11 hijackers hail).
The reasoning that Muslims are burning up Europe is a fallacious lie, that problem has to do with how Europeans are dealing with immigrants rather then a specific religious block. In France the lashings out are because the French discriminate against the Algerians and those not of their ilk. Hundreds of thousands live in peace in countries like the US, Canada, UK, Netherlands, Sweden and others. But its too often political opportunistic to blame the immigrants arriving, and fear monger about Muslim threat in order to gain political power. This is the same way many dictators assume emergency powers in countless times across history.
To terrorists the Islamic religion is but a political tool of mobilization, whose teachings they mangle into their own belief of killing westerners, its a desecration for nowhere in the Koran is it allowed to kill civilians, commit terrorist acts or wage a guerrilla war. The highest ruling in the Koran is to seek peace over confrontation and war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad
Here are some enlightening links:
http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/
http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/
http://www.islamisation.fr/
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=35
See a constant here?
I don't see too many Japanese raping Norwegian women or partaking in urban warfare with their host countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khaybar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mu%27tah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tabouk
second paragraph of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Trench
Jesus never led an army or commanded his followers to kill anyone. Muhammad did both. And it wasn't all self-defense. The some of the stories justifying Muhammad's conquests as self-defense are just as suspect as the alleged "resurrection" of Jesus. Jesus, if he existed at all and the Jefferson Bible reflects him, lived by his word of "love your enemies" and "turn the other cheek" (except evicting the merchants from the temple, but nobody got hurt), while Muhammad used violence in defense and other objectives. All religious scriptures are based primarily on fantasy, but at least the character of Jesus didn't kill anybody (unlike his later followers)
Of course, I'm not defending the douchebaggery of the clerk in the video.
I don't judge people by their religious beliefs, but by their actions. And those can be good OR bad no matter what religion they follow.
The Muslim world's drive, however, is still fueled by the ideology of a 6th century sectarian battalion. Islam never had a Renaissance... never had the period of self-doubt and introspection that Europe went through... this may be in part because just question Koranic validity is punishable by death!
Cheers to jwray for going against the grain.
-11 on my original comment for pointing it out
are you crying? There's no CRYING in racism!!!
Wow, I didn't know we had so many "A League of Their Own" fans.
i think journalism like this can be as harmful as religious fundamentalism.
Yeah, let's just be quiet about the racism that's going on and act as if everything is ok. Good idea pipp!
jwray, you are an idiot. There's been alot more killing in the name of Christ than there's ever been in the name of Allah. Calling Islam "bullshit" is soooo fucking ignorant, as if Christianity is any better, if not alot worse.
I don't judge people by their religious beliefs, but by their actions. And those can be good OR bad no matter what religion they follow.
I am NOT saying christianity is any better and I am NOT denying that a lot of people have been killed in the name of christianity. Christianity is also superstitious bullshit. However the historical figure of Jesus, if he existed and the Jefferson bible reflects him at all, was a better person than Muhammad because he actually practiced what he preached regarding peacefulness (unlike Muhammad). Every religion is based on fantasy. Muhammad, the hypocrite, said Allah is most merciful, but approved the killing of all the men of the Banu Qarayza who would not convert, and enslaving all their women and children.
Yeah, let's just be quiet about the racism that's going on and act as if everything is ok. Good idea pipp!
The clerk and Muslima were paid actors... the discrimination (Muslim is a race now?) in that video was a staged performance!
Encouraging subcultures that are aligned with what we value most might always be more effective than being able to be accused of opposing an entire culture
but not any more!
Islamic science is the same as Christian science; bullshit.
To clarify, the individuals subject to scrutiny were placed into an completely artificial environment where the desired outcome of their behaviour was decidedly engineered. I have no doubt that the clerk actively incited participation from bystanders.
^ of course he did, however...I would point out that the customers' reactions were not necessarily engineered. For example, I don't care how artificial of an environment I am in, I will still act like myself.
Compare this to an Asch paradigm where the control doesn't exist and the ratio matches up perfectly.
To claim that this is "How Muslims Are Treated In [sic] USA" is patently ludicrous. The only fair assessment would be a hidden camera tracking a hijab-clad woman going about daily tasks.
^ I don't think anyone here claimed this was an awesome scientific/social experiment. Entertaining demonstration/exhibition of various reactions to the "elephant in the room" is what is inherent.
It seems that the fact that all we saw was a well-rehearsed performance by professional actors went over everyone's head. If there's one thing people can't get enough of it's righteous indignation.
^again, I will say that the customers do not appear to be actors, and I don't think that anyone here missed the fact that the woman and the clerk WERE actors. Your suggestion that a fair assesment would be a hidden camera tracking a hijab-clad woman going about daily tasks is excellent should anyone wish to follow through with a scientific experiment. I believe for some reason that this was never meant to be passed off as such, and rather more of what I stated above.
This BBC News report shows the issue in better light. Also this MSNBC interactive site, the common words being mentioned is poverty, alienation, discrimination and integration problems.
The issue isn't so much religion in Europe it's social reactionism against immigration, using the Islamic religion as a scape goat to increase anti-immigration sentiment. Tell me the last time someone put the issue in favourble light in the last 7 years post 9/11 and the whole radical Islam scare, before 9/11 we could look at terrorism as simply that but now we couple it with the Islamic faith.
Islam being a religion of war? Please. If Islam was a religion of war you'd be screwed then because you know its the single largest religious denomination now in the world? But for some reason all these ideas only exist in your fantasies.
Am sick and tired of this hypocrisy with regards to claiming Islam a religion of war, you connect anything a Muslim person does to his religion, I bet if a Muslim kills an American tomorrow it won't be that one person killed another but will be reported as "Muslim Slays American".
Think of it this way from the same perspective "Christian President Declares War on Islamic Nations of Afghanistan and Iraq". There we go again. Its the myth of clash of civilizations. Go back to 1999, no one gave a shit about Islam, now post 9/11 and the media drive everyone has become a buck shot specialist on the 'threat' of Islam.
http://www.videosift.com/video/OMG-bout-time-50-cents-video-game-got-a-sequel
only helps spread the message of tolerance and understanding.
>> ^Pprt:
To clarify, the individuals subject to scrutiny were placed into an completely artificial environment where the desired outcome of their behaviour was decidedly engineered. I have no doubt that the clerk actively incited participation from bystanders.
^ of course he did, however...I would point out that the customers' reactions were not necessarily engineered. For example, I don't care how artificial of an environment I am in, I will still act like myself.
Compare this to an Asch paradigm where the control doesn't exist and the ratio matches up perfectly.
To claim that this is "How Muslims Are Treated In [sic] USA" is patently ludicrous. The only fair assessment would be a hidden camera tracking a hijab-clad woman going about daily tasks.
^ I don't think anyone here claimed this was an awesome scientific/social experiment. Entertaining demonstration/exhibition of various reactions to the "elephant in the room" is what is inherent.
It seems that the fact that all we saw was a well-rehearsed performance by professional actors went over everyone's head. If there's one thing people can't get enough of it's righteous indignation.
^again, I will say that the customers do not appear to be actors, and I don't think that anyone here missed the fact that the woman and the clerk WERE actors. Your suggestion that a fair assesment would be a hidden camera tracking a hijab-clad woman going about daily tasks is excellent should anyone wish to follow through with a scientific experiment. I believe for some reason that this was never meant to be passed off as such, and rather more of what I stated above.
The customers were indeed subjects, and social behaviour is indeed defined by one's company.
My offense is that this is certainly not an accurate depiction of "How Muslims Are Treated In The USA" (by the way, thank you for editing the title Farhad2000).
Muslims are free to practicce their faith, minarets dot the landscapes of Washington and many American cities, laws were enacted prohibiting discriminatory practices and Muslims currently enjoy a priviledged status regarding their religion in the public space.
Farhad2000, that debate is entirely unrelated to the video posting and its reticulum is far too wide for superficial rebuttal... I'm not sure it's proper to broach such complex matter considering the raison d'etre of this video posting. Suffice to say that if you are suggesting Islam is devoid of militarism you either ill-informed, oblivious or a seasoned Taqqiya expert.
In my esteem, any religion that encompasses a penal code (jurisprudence), financial regulations, actively censures opposition, legiferates all spheres of life (public and private) must be judged in toto as a political entity as well as a faith. As such, the drive of maintaining a parallel political system for a certain strata of society is indeed indicative of a "threat" to many Western nations.
I figured it would be like "Jay walking" where Jay Leno edits out 99% of the respondents to find the dumbest 1%
...I would love to hear some justification as to why this particular video is harmful...
Would you say this is "How Muslims Are Treated In The USA"?
Imagine if a naive Muslim chances upon this page. Do you think the title may be misleading?
Would you say this is "How Muslims Are Treated In The USA"?
Imagine if a naive Muslim chances upon this page. Do you think the title may be misleading?
The title is a bit misleading, because it doesn't indicate that this is a contrived situation. More of a social experiment. But anyway, that's not a criticism of the video segment, that's a criticism of who-ever posted it to sift.
Would you say this is "How Muslims Are Treated In The USA"?
Imagine if a naive Muslim chances upon this page. Do you think the title may be misleading?
The title is a bit misleading, because it doesn't indicate that this is a contrived situation. More of a social experiment. But anyway, that's not a criticism of the video segment, that's a criticism of who-ever posted it to sift.
Very fair. The chosen title is in bad taste.
See comments about this video by Muslims, they've been as misled as most of you.
I also discovered that Dateline also employs provocateur tactics. link to another questionable "investigation"
Some things good, others not as good:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Kuwait
Muslims have no problem with Jews, they have a problem with Zionists, which is a totally different thing and relates to the continuous oppression of Palestinian people. There are many Jews who live in peace in that most feared state of Iran, something that dispels the common held misconception that Iran wants to 'wipe' Israel away. The differences are political not religious.
It would take a whole book to discuss either side of this argument; for this particular sift, the focus was on Muslims in the United States. Even from the above wiki link I see that once again, there is more religious freedom and tolerance in the US than elsewhere.
Islamic ways are not backward and are totally compatible with Democracy, which thrives in Kuwait, Turkey, Indonesia and other nations (I exclude most Middle East nations since they are monarchies, like that closest ally to the US called Saudi Arabia from where most of 9/11 hijackers hail).
To clarify: living as Muslim is possible most anywhere, but Sharia law as interpreted appears incompatible with Western republics.
The reasoning that Muslims are burning up Europe is a fallacious lie, that problem has to do with how Europeans are dealing with immigrants rather then a specific religious block...
In the age of Poisonous Correctness, it's very difficult for power-seekers to villify any group except the largest or most successful. The evidence leans more to the argument of Muslim non-assmilation than resistance on the part of the majority, who have the option of curtailing immigration.
To terrorists the Islamic religion is but a political tool of mobilization, whose teachings they mangle into their own belief of killing westerners, its a desecration for nowhere in the Koran is it allowed to kill civilians, commit terrorist acts or wage a guerrilla war. The highest ruling in the Koran is to seek peace over confrontation and war.
A hopeful argument, but if a few dozen terrorists killed thousands in the name of Christ, the worldwide condemnation from Christian majorities would be swift and loud. There is no equivalent singular voice from the world's one billion + Muslims.
I agree the piece would have been much more powerful (and somewhat more scientific) if it had been a hidden camera on an average Muslim in America. However, the video as is still is quite telling about the level of ignorance and intolerance here. I don't approve of this style of journalism in general (because it's lazy and inflammatory), but I would love to hear some justification as to why this particular video is harmful. As far as I can tell, it would only be harmful if it was completely staged with 100% actors and slanted against the reality of our society. It does not appear to be any of those things.
Hi Max,
Unfortunately I'm not sufficiently motivated to provide a detailed account of how I conclude that this sort of journalism is unhelpful and dangerous. But the short version of my argument is that people who are unfamiliar with social psychology could be wrongly persuaded by this video that this is an example of How Muslims Are Treated In The USA.
In fact, I think the grouping of 'muslim' and 'American' in this video is arbitrary and the same effect could be produced if all of these people were grouped in any way where there are similar antecedent conditions (e.g. salient normalcy between members). To my mind, a more parsimonious explanation of what we're really seeing at work here is random blend of social cognitive phenomena. For example, I think the participant's reactions could be reliability predicted as a function of personality which would have nothing to do with the in/out group distinction.
Here is a much more detailed account of what I am talking about: http://ourcomments.org/psych/GroupthinkII-realFinalADvances-1.pdf
A hopeful argument, but if a few dozen terrorists killed thousands in the name of Christ, the worldwide condemnation from Christian majorities would be swift and loud. There is no equivalent singular voice from the world's one billion + Muslims.
Erm, last time i checked, so-called "christians" voted a few dozen terrorists into the whitehouse and millions died.